MINISTER TONY BURKE - TRANSCRIPT, RADIO NATIONAL INTERVIEW WITH PATRICIA KARVELAS - TUESDAY, 1 OCTOBER 2024

TRANSCRIPT

 RADIO NATIONAL INTERVIEW WITH PATRICIA KARVELAS

 TUESDAY 1 OCTOBER 2024

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The Federal Government is threatening to cancel the visas of anyone inciting discord in Australia as state and federal police investigate protestors who carried flags of the Lebanese militia group Hezbollah at rallies over the weekend. It comes as a new envoy to deal with Islamophobia is announced after months of delays. Tony Burke is the Minister for Home Affairs and our guest this morning. Minister, welcome back to the program.

TONY BURKE: Hi, Patricia.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: You’ve said you’re prepared to cancel visas. Have any visas been cancelled since the weekend?

TONY BURKE: No, and we don’t know whether people there are actually on visas or people who end up being of concern to the authorities are on visas. I was simply asked within my portfolio of the actions that I would take, and it’s very clear that if someone is inciting discord, they fail the character test, and I’d be willing to cancel those visas.

So we’ve sent the message and we’ve done this before to the different police forces – in this case New South Wales and Victoria – and just said that if anybody who they’re concerned about, if they can check their visa status as well, and if someone is on a visa, then that will come to us.

We do have a higher standard in Australia if you’re on a visa as to what’s expected of you. If you’re on a visa in anyone’s country you’re there as a guest. And, you know, the normal principles that might be there where people who have arguments about freedom of speech… when you’re a guest in someone’s country you’re there as a guest and inciting discord is a reason for me to refuse visas and a reason for me to cancel visas.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. So, what would be the bar be for visa cancellation? Is holding a Hezbollah flag enough to get your visa cancelled?

TONY BURKE: I’m not going to go through the pre-judge question because anything I cancel ends up in court as well. Let me say that I’ve got very strong views against hate speech and hate symbols. Very strong views. And I don’t want the anger and hatred from around the world being imported into Australia. And so, as far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t matter which side of a conflict you’re on – if you’re involved in inciting discord and hatred in Australia then I want to have a look, and I ask the department to prepare a brief for me so I can consider whether the visa should be cancelled.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: We know that from December last year in the Commonwealth Criminal Code it became an offence to display the symbols of a listed terrorist organisation. Now, Hezbollah has been on the list since I think it’s 2021. So given that, is actually waving a Hezbollah flag against the law in this country?

TONY BURKE: Well, there’s certainly laws that speak to it. I know that – and they’re laws that are new and laws that have to be tested before the courts. I understand later in the program you’ve got the Australian Federal Police on, and they’ll be able to give you more up to date as to where –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I can actually interrupt – politely, sorry – and say we’ve already spoken to the Federal Police.

TONY BURKE: Oh, that’s happened?

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Yeah, it’s happened.

TONY BURKE: Sorry, I missed that. I heard the earlier part of the program, sorry.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: That’s okay. We change things sometimes. We spoke to them earlier and what they did confirm is that it’s all about context, that there are other things that need to happen as well in terms of incitement, that perhaps just a Hezbollah flag isn’t enough. Does that mean you need to tighten up the laws?

TONY BURKE: You’re talking about an interview that I thought I was going to listen to later today, and I haven’t. So what the Federal Police have given a description that I can’t speak to. Obviously, I haven’t heard that interview.

What I can say is this: when those laws were passed through the Parliament, they were the strongest statement on hate speech that the Parliament has ever taken. They were supported by both sides of politics. They’re yet to be tested in the courts for the first time. I’m glad that we passed them.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So is this the test of those laws now?

TONY BURKE: Well, the first cases that are brought will be the first cases that are tested. And they may well be from what happened over the course of the weekend. In any event, when some people argue freedom of speech on symbols of hate and on hate speech generally, I have a very different view. My priority is for people to feel safe in Australia. My priority is for people to be able to live peacefully in Australia. And the lowering of the temperature is important, and those laws should be part of lowering the temperature.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Hassan Nasrallah is, of course, the Hezbollah leader that Israel has killed. We know that in some mosques in Sydney there were memorials for him. Is that appropriate?

TONY BURKE: Well, the government doesn’t mourn him for one minute. Not for one minute. But I’ll tell you, there are civilians who have been killed who we mourn. There are

people who have nothing to do with terrorism, who were alive a week ago and are dead now. And we certainly – certainly – mourn them. For people claiming that they mourn

someone like that, they can explain that for themselves. But from the government’s perspective, there are plenty of people to mourn, and he’s not one of them.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Does it worry you that in mosques in Sydney that he would be mourned?

TONY BURKE: I don’t understand the reasons for it, and the people who are doing that can explain that. But certainly from the government’s perspective and from my personal perspective, when you think of the number of people out there who have been killed in this conflict and, you know, the children who have been killed, the civilians who have been killed in Lebanon through the attacks that have happened from the IDF in recent days, you know, you look at the balance of are we talking about numbers of terrorists versus numbers of civilians, it’s not that I can offer a statistic, but I’ll tell you, the number of civilians killed is just intolerable, and that’s why the government’s calls for a ceasefire are so important.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Peter Dutton has said you should recall parliament to pass laws criminalizing the behaviour we talked about at these protests, which was a minority, but certainly it was there if needed. Are you open to doing that, to strengthening the laws?

TONY BURKE: With Peter Dutton it is always about the Middle East and never about middle Australia. He didn’t say we should recall the parliament so we could get our housing legislation through. He didn’t say we should move quickly in the parliament to get cheaper child care, cheaper medicines or anything to do with the cost of living –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Sure, I understand that you want to criticise Peter Dutton, but are you prepared to do it?

TONY BURKE: No, no, but the moment it’s about the Middle East, the moment it’s about something on the other side of the world, Peter Dutton wants to talk about that and nothing else, and suddenly wants to say let’s recall the parliament. If you were going to recall the parliament, you’d be doing it to do something on cost of living, and we’ve got the legislation in front of parliament right now to try to get more people into houses, and Peter Dutton and the Greens are voting together to prevent that from happening.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But with respect, Minister, you can do more than one thing, right? Like –

TONY BURKE: No, no, no.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: – you can deliver cost of living relief and also have a tough position on terror symbols or terror glorification. Do you think there might be a case for

strengthening the laws?

TONY BURKE: These are laws that Peter Dutton supported when they were passed a year ago. The reason Peter Dutton wants to recall the parliament is to – there are two reasons why he wants to: first, any chance he gets to not talk about cost of living he wants to take it. Secondly, with Peter Dutton it remains the case that no matter how many times our security agencies say we need to lower the temperature in Australia, he wants to raise the temperature. Every single time. He doesn’t want to recall parliament because he wants to change laws that he supported a year ago; he wants to recall parliament because he wants to throw more kerosene on the fire and get people angrier with each other and say more outrageous things in the parliament. That’s what it’s about. It’s nothing to do with Australia.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But isn’t there kerosene being thrown at the fire by people holding Hezbollah flags and, you know, glorifying Hassan Nasrallah?

TONY BURKE: Well, I don’t think I could take as Immigration Minister a stronger position than to make the contact with the police that we’ve made and to say immediately if anyone involved is on a visa we want to be able to have them drawn to our attention so we can consider whether the visa should be cancelled. I don’t think the AFP can do more than investigate what’s happened and work out whether or not charges should be laid. But, you know, I’ve got full confidence in our security agencies. They’re dealing with laws that only minutes ago Peter Dutton supported. And, you know, we all sat there a few weeks ago where for two weeks every single question was about the Middle East from Peter Dutton. For some reason he wants to be in charge of Australia while talking about anything other than what happens in Australia or to Australians.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: You say, you know, you’re prepared to cancel visas. How about if they’re Australian citizens? What happens then?

TONY BURKE: Well, then, that’s where the AFP role comes in. You know, if you’re an Australian citizen then there’s a straight issue of have you broken the law.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And do you think largely they would have been Australian citizens? I mean, you know, the idea that people are on visas –

TONY BURKE: I presume so. When The Australian came to me for comment I was surprised that they hadn’t gone to Mark Dreyfus – and we checked this – because he’s responsible for the AFP. But they insisted they wanted a comment from me, so I gave an answer about the part of it that’s relevant to my portfolio, which is with respect to people on visas. But, you know, we’ve done this with protests before and they haven’t come back with anyone being on visas. So I’ve got no presumption that anyone is on a visa, but I did something that journalists will often complain about – I was asked a question and I answered it.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Palestinians here on visitor visas, what happened to them in the long term, Minister? What are you going to do?

TONY BURKE: I’ve been dealing with them case by case. So over the last few weeks I’ve been dealing with some of the Palestinians on visitor visas who are here in Australia – some on visitor visas, some on bridging visas – and for some of the people who I’ve been meeting with, I’ve been transferring them on to humanitarian visas. That’s the same humanitarian visa that the Ukrainians are now – that the Ukrainians have been on. And so I’ve been doing that. We’re doing all the full checks that you’d expect in terms of security checks an everything that gets done. But –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So how many of them have been now transferred on to humanitarian visas?

TONY BURKE: There’d be 12 families who I’ve met with so far that – where that’s happened. And I’m continuing to meet with families. We’re doing it on a case-by-case basis. And so –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister – sorry – does that mean you will actually meet with this entire cohort eventually? Is that what you’re – you’re going to take an individual approach to all of it?

TONY BURKE: Well, if at some point we make a decision about the entire cohort as a government, then you’d have a decision about the entire cohort. But at the moment what we’re doing is we’re going case by case.

They don’t all have to be personal meetings with me, but so far they have been. And I’ll tell you, there’s been some extraordinary people I’ve met with – some extraordinary people. Some people with skills, like some accountants who are desperate to be able to work here in Australia. One man who had – has a son with cerebral palsy, an adult son, who through Gaza he had carried for five kilometres. You know, a man a good deal older than me carrying his adult son for five kilometres to try to get him to safety.

When he met with me he was still carrying his son because they didn’t have a wheelchair yet. These are some extraordinary, good people who I’ve met with, and I’m hoping with those individual decisions that we’ve been making, that they’re finding a bit more safety here in Australia.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: If you are just tuning in, you’re listening to ABC Radio National Breakfast. It’s Tuesday morning, and my guest is the Home Affairs Minister Tony Burke. Tony Burke, you’ve also finally announced an Islamophobia Envoy. Why are the terms of reference different to the Antisemitism Envoy?

TONY BURKE: They’re not now. They’re not. I can tell you what happened with that one – so when – the draft terms of reference had been done for both envoys prior to me becoming minister, and they were identical. Then when Jillian Segal agreed to be the Antisemitism Envoy, she asked for the terms of reference for her to be changed, so they were changed. But we didn’t yet have anyone to be the Islamophobia Envoy, so there was no-one to have the parallel discussion with. 

When that freedom of information request happened, what was available – the original form of the Islamophobia terms of reference and the altered form of the antisemitism terms of reference. The new Islamophobia Envoy, I spoke to Aftab Malik before – once he’d agreed to do the job but before we’d done the paperwork and asked whether he wanted the same changes that Jillian Segal had. He did, and so both of the terms of reference started identical and now they’re identical again.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. Why has it taken so long to convince someone to do this job?

TONY BURKE: It’s – finding the right person has taken a while. I’ve been in the job for – I don’t know, what – six or seven weeks or something now. And I’ve – there were some other priorities I had to get to straight away. The calls – I did the consultation with the community a bit differently. Rather than starting with a name I started talking to people about what sort of person should fill the role. And it was through those conversations that Aftab Malik emerged.

Importantly, the purpose of this role is we’re not trying to create someone who somehow speaks for the Islamic community. This is a very targeted job for them to talk about Islamophobia. And it’s important that they have the support of the community, and Aftab does. But it’s also important their job is to help to combat Islamophobia throughout the country. You know, I’ll go through – it’s a long time since Irish Catholics had sectarian abuse in Australia, so I’ll go through my whole life without experiencing hate speech and bigotry in this country, but my neighbours won’t, a whole lot of people I know won’t. And we’ve got legal protections at the moment and, you know, people will argue whether they’re strong enough, but we do have legal protections against hate speech if it’s based on race, if it’s based on sex, gender sexuality, if it’s based on disability.

We don’t have legal protections if it’s based on faith. So that’s why these envoy positions are particularly important to help make the case and to help to lower the temperature in Australia. We always need to remember while it hasn’t happened here in Australia, the Christchurch massacre was conducted by an Australian. Islamophobia can lead to forms of terrorism and violent extremism that are absolutely horrific. And I – you know, if you go to who is the person most likely to be targeted for abuse in Australia right now, it’s an Islamic woman wearing a hijab. I don’t want that to be the case. I want everyone to be able to live peacefully and live safely. This appointment is a step in the right direction for that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Tony Burke, should police have made the arrests on the spot during those demonstrations given the tough laws you talk about?

TONY BURKE: They have to make arrests based on how they gather evidence. I’m not going to give operational advice to the federal or state police.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But there’s still confusion about the laws that exist. So the Hezbollah flag or the Hassan Nasrallah image are not enough?

TONY BURKE: I’m not going to give – there’ll be a whole lot of operational reasons as to the timing of how police conduct their operations. You’ll occasionally get a politician reckoning they know better, but I’m not going –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Politicians do make the laws that the police then enforce, and that’s why the question is key.

TONY BURKE: No, no, no, but the question also goes to should it be immediately, or should they continue gathering information before they make those decisions. And that’s an operational matter, and I've got full support around --

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And you don’t think there needs to be any law reform until these laws are tested in the courts?

TONY BURKE: I don’t see the argument. A year ago Peter Dutton supported these changes to the law. He was claiming credit for these changes to the law. The reason he is now jumping up and down is because any chance he gets to talk about the Middle East rather than middle Australia, that’s where he wants to go.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay.

TONY BURKE: I don’t really understand it. You know, I would have thought there’s enough going on in Australia to be able to have a serious conversation about what’s happening here. But Peter Dutton has got his own strategy, his own views. I find it odd.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Of course, there’ll be more protests; October the 7th anniversary looms. We have seen this morning confirmation, of course, that there will be a ground incursion – the United States has been informed – and that’s into Lebanon. What does that mean for the protests that we’re likely to see this weekend and how we deal with the social cohesion issues that come with that?

TONY BURKE: Obviously we want people to be peaceful. People are feeling immense hurt, and there’ll be vigils that are held from members of the Jewish community remembering the horrors of October 7 in particular. And there’ll be both vigils and protests that are held that would have been held anyway with respect to, you know, what’s happening in Gaza, with the killing there and what we expect might have started happening in Lebanon by then. The Australian government’s position on what’s happening on the other side of the world is to call for ceasefire. We do not want Lebanon to become the next Gaza. We are –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Is it becoming the next Gaza, in your view?

TONY BURKE: Well, certainly we are seeing the beginnings of extraordinary civilian casualties. Extraordinary. And there is no more important message I can give in any interview right now that if you have family in Lebanon, it is time to leave. No-one should think they are in a safe part of Lebanon at the moment. They should leave.

The DFAT – the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade – is working with the airlines to try to help get more people out. Obviously it would have been easier if people had left earlier, but we are where we are now. And we are – our first obligation is always to our citizens, and if anyone is in contact with people there and they are deciding whether to leave, our advice is unequivocal – they should leave.

I can give, if I can quickly, Patricia, the consulate number if people are calling from within Australia – it’s 1300 555 135. And if people are themselves in Lebanon and want to make the call internationally, it’s + 61 2 6261 3305.

We’re doing all the work that people would expect with partners in terms of what happens if the airport does completely shut down. Right now, though, there are some windows for people to be able to leave, and wherever they can they should take them.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Tony Burke, many thanks for joining us this morning.

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